I’M IN THIS SKIN

It was impossible not to come across Rae Dawn Chong in the mid-eighties. After having played the most human character in QUEST FOR FIRE in 1981, she suddenly burst onto the scene in 1984, doing no less than nine movies in two years. Among them iconic films like BEAT STREET, Steven Spielberg’s THE COLOR PURPLE and the Arnold Schwarzenegger action fest COMMANDO. Only two years later she disappeared from the screen, after some bad experiences in Hollywood. She came back in the early nineties, doing mostly genre movies for a while, like CRYING FREEMAN, THE BORROWER and TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE. It was all she was offered, she says. In October 2020, Roel Haanen had a talk with Chong about her career, about playing race and about the rotten core roots of Hollywood.

You grew up the daughter of Tommy Chong. I wondered if his profession somehow influenced your career choice.

Yeah, well, I was on stage at two. I was a singer as a child. My dad was always in bands, so it was absolutely perfect exposure.

You started at two years old?

I was dragged on stage. My father's band played in a parking lot in Vancouver. I believe the hotel was called The Blue Boy. His band was Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers and they played everywhere. I remember dancing and getting a lot of attention. The audience went crazy. I just kept that up. I really liked performing. So yeah, it influenced me for sure.

When did you know you wanted to become a professional actress?

In sixth grade, when I was twelve years old, I sang a song called Celebrate Life by Gordon DeWitty and I got a standing ovation. In the audience was a casting person from Disney – she lived across the street from us and I knew her kids – and she said: There’s a show at Disney that’s getting cast and there’s a part that you would be great for. Why don’t you come in? So, I went to the audition and got the role. But it all came from the fact that I got up on stage and showed the It Factor. When I got the part, all of a sudden I got bit by the bug. I couldn’t believe that you could do something that you would normally do for free – pretend, that is – and they would pay you. I thought that was fantastic.

You mentioned music. I recently saw STONY ISLAND for the first time. I loved it. And I was very surprised that you not only sang in the movie, but that you wrote the song yourself.

The way I got that part was, I was flying back from Colorado, where I was visiting a friend, and the person I sat next to on the plane – I was fifteen at the time and living on my own – was the music advisor for Andy Davis and Tamar Hoffs, who were the director and producer of STONY ISLAND. And this person next to me told me about the movie they were making in Chicago and that they were looking for a young girl who could sing. So, I called up a friend and we wrote a song really quickly and we got some studio time. The song was called Dark Town, which is pretty racist if I think back on it. It was about the South Side of Chicago, which I had never even been to anyway. I sent it in and they said yes. I got the part. This was the crazy thing: I was two days late! I got the dates wrong. So, on my first feature I was already a movie star.

Did you say that you were living on your own at fifteen?

Yeah, I lived in an apartment with two of my best friends.

And your parents were okay with that?

They didn’t have much to say, because my dad didn’t live with us. He was always on the road. My mom was overwhelmed. She had two daughters who were pretty free range. And she worked all the time. We were fighting a lot, so I recommended that I move out. She was trying to keep control of us, but we were already on our own. When you grow up a latchkey kid it’s very hard to reign it in.

I didn’t have much of a childhood. I had to wait until my son was out of the house and grown up, before I could have a childhood. Now, I’m having my childhood. Now that I’m a grandmother.

So, you did STONY ISLAND with Andrew Davis. He was also attached to direct BEAT STREET, right? Is that how you got that part?

Yes. I got the role because of Andy, and then he was fired after the first week, because he couldn’t get along with the producers. It was a complicated thing. I ended up doing BEAT STREET because of Andy and then he gets fired.

Because of creative differences?

I don’t know. No one ever told me why he was fired. He never told me. He just apologized: I talked you into this movie and now I gotta go! This is the thing about Hollywood: if you get hired on something by a friend, and they get fired, you gotta stay. That’s the professional thing to do. I had a difficult time on that film for other reasons, but I stayed. It turned out okay. It’s one of those films that has legs, because kids are now discovering it. That’s kinda cute.

Were you into hip hop culture?

I respect the hip hop culture and I loved meeting all those guys: Afrika Bambaataa, Crazy Legs, the Rock Steady Crew. I loved being around it. It was a fantastic, extraordinary group of talent. Even Giancarlo Esposito is in it, as an extra. If you look closely you can see him in the background. And Guy Davis, who is a singer now, I became friends with. I still talk to him. It was sweet. I didn’t get along real well with the producer Harry Belafonte. I respect him for his civil rights activism. That’s amazing, what he did. But I didn’t like him as a producer. He fired my friend, so.

Speaking of hip hop, I loved that film WILD STYLE. Have you ever seen it? I thought that one was better than our film.

I would agree with you. BEAT STREET works fantastically as a time capsule of that place and time, but as a film, it has some major problems.

Yeah. I agree. It was weirdly tragic. I was doing research for my part on BEAT STREET and I went and saw WILD STYLE. Once I saw that film, and I read our script, I was like: Oh noooo! Ours was so Disney and not in a good way.

I’m skipping over QUEST FOR FIRE, which is such an interesting movie.

No one ever remembers I’m in it, because I’m covered up for the whole movie. Making that movie was misery, but watching it was joyous. It was so good. I really love that movie. But it was like I was watching a stranger on screen. Because making it took a strip off me.

Because of the elements?

Yes. We were naked and it was freezing. And I was in a lot of scenes, so I had to film everywhere. We were in Scotland in November and it was fucking freezing! We were in Africa in December and it was so bloody hot! Then we were in Ontario in March and it was freezing again. There was literally no comfort on that movie.

On top of it we had a French director. I love the French, but they’re difficult. The best part of making that movie was being with Ron Perlman and Everett McGill and Nameer El-Kadi. If it wasn’t for them, I would have quit.

In 1984 and 1985 you suddenly exploded onto the movie screen, with so many different parts. How did that happen?

All of a sudden I just went on a run. I became the It Girl. I have no idea how that happens. It was 1983 when a script called CHOOSE ME came to me. I did a small turn in that, which was fun. Then I did a film called CITY LIMITS, which was a low budget motorcycle thing. I flew straight from the set of CITY LIMITS to New York to do BEAT STREET. There was no rest. After BEAT STREET I ran into Mick Jagger and Keith Richards and I talked myself into a Mick Jagger video, called Running Out of Luck. And that really helped me with COMMANDO. MTV was happening and I was on heavy rotation. The part in COMMANDO was written for a blonde white chick, but then every female part is written for a blonde white chick. I kept pushing my agents to get me in on some of the good scripts. With COMMANDO I managed to talk them out of the blonde thing. I was much more a hustler too, back then. I was young and beautiful and I had a good team and a good hustle.

Was COMMANDO a good experience for you? Working with director Mark L. Lester?

Mark Lester is credited as the director, but it really was [producer] Joel Silver who directed it. Joel is kind of a big bully and there was not one scene or moment where he did not have his paws on Lester. After every scene we would look at Mark and then immediately at Joel.

But being around Schwarzenegger every day was a lot of fun. I was a fan of his. I had seen his movie STAY HUNGRY, by Bob Rafelson, when I was a kid. Because my dad was a body builder.

Tommy Chong was a body builder?

Yeah. He was super fit. If you look at the early Cheech & Chong films, my dad’s got muscle. He’s jacked from working out. He was a big fan of Dave Draper and Frank Zane and all the big body builders of the seventies. My dad was a real groupie towards that whole Arnold bodybuilding cabal. So, I knew about Arnold as a child even. I grew up around Muscle Beach. I told him so at the audition. That probably helped him to like me. [Laughs]

So, I had a really good time on that movie. And I knew it was going to be a big hit. Sometimes you can smell it when you’re on a film. Or you can tell by the poster.

Did you get offered any more of these action films?

No, I never got offered these types of films again. You would have thought more roles like that would open up for me, but it’s not a fair business. It’s run by white men who are waiting to hate you. They can’t wait to hear bad things about you. Even from a toxic piece of shit like Joel Silver. He is just a really bad guy. People believe producers, they don’t believe actors. Since then he has had some trouble. He had somebody working for him and she died. Now nobody likes him, but back than he was the guy.

What did Joel Silver say about you exactly?

Joel and I have a long history and to give you an idea of its genesis: he was a gopher to a Hollywood producer and that was when I first met him. He was picking up the guy’s dry-cleaning. So, we didn't have too much love flowing between us. But I did the funniest, best reading, so he cast me. I’m convinced he said horrible things about me to people in town and it hurt my flow. I know this because that’s how Joel rolls. Also, because Hollywood is made up of idiots who are racist and misogynists and hating on us women. It’s a Hollywood standard. They’re guys who would be losers anywhere else.

You played a lot of parts that could have been played by actresses of any color. I’m thinking of CHOOSE ME, COMMANDO, AMERICAN FLYERS, THE SQUEEZE. Did you choose them deliberately for that reason?

Yes. Because I never get the role that’s racially specific. They will go with Whoopi Goldberg or Alfre Woodard. You look at them and you know what’s going on. With me being mixed, I never had a chance to get into what they call blackting. I went for the parts that were non-specific and did not depend on me pulling in this other baggage.

Being a person of color, you’re always in a struggle. Because I got punished for it later. Spike Lee started to comment on my work. I did SOUL MAN and a bunch of other movies and Spike Lee criticized me because I wasn’t representing. Apparently you can’t be in the movies unless you represent. It was all becoming more militant. The cause was happening. I got a lot of pushback for being a colorless actor.

So you see? You can’t win. If you’re a person of color and you want to play a role that’s emotional on some level, you can’t do that unless you represent. And if you want to play a black role, they go with somebody darker. Someone more African.

Hollywood is run by white men. They want to see what they are familiar with, and that’s other white men. They want movies about the white man experience. And if they do go for the black man experience, they go for the blackest actor they can find. So I always had to navigate this culture.

Show business is so interesting. If you think about the genesis of Hollywood movies, it was a group of Russian, Jewish, Italian misfits who weren’t accepted in any other sphere of life. So they started making these wacky movies. That band of misfits – a lot of them criminals – they made up the basis of Hollywood. Especially Warner and those early guys, they were racist and sexist pigs, really. So, Hollywood is an industry of wonder and media, but the core roots of Hollywood are rotten.

What’s complicated about it still, is that some of the best films are made by people you wouldn’t even want to have a meal with. Hateful men, but they can have a pure vision. It takes a lot of  I-don’t-care-what-you-think-of-me to become a really good director. Now that I’m almost sixty, I look around and I think: Oh my God, there are so many things I would rather do. You know, be with people of high character. If I had to do it over, I’m not sure I would say: You know, let me just go into a business that’s racist, sexist and greedy. Let me struggle! Now, in 2020, can you believe that we’re still in single digits in terms of how many female directors there are? And we’re so smart and organized!

How bad was the sexism and racism in Hollywood when you were coming up in the eighties?

There was tons of it! But I remember this one time: I had a meeting with Hal Ashby in his house in Malibu. It was for a film in which I would play a girl that was trying to become a boy. She was living as a boy in the ghetto. I really wanted this part, but Hal was dying of cancer. But he as a person… That was one of the peak experiences I had in Hollywood. He made me realize that not everybody in Hollywood is a pig. Not everybody is trying to sleep with you. And they’re not all racist. But I never got a chance to work with him, because he died.

The Spike Lee criticism, was that targeted at SOUL MAN specifically?

No, it was targeted at me, but he did jump on SOUL MAN which he never saw, so he doesn’t know how absolutely adorable that film is. It wouldn’t be made today, but I think it’s fantastic. It’s such a sweet film.

Spike Lee is a very talented director, but also a complicated man. I think he was correct in saying I wasn’t playing my race. As an actor I didn’t go race first. I wasn’t blackting. Sam Jackson is a really good actor, but he also blackts. That’s fine. Some people are good at that. You can call me racist for saying this, but that’s the truth. So, Spike Lee was right that I wasn’t playing my race, but I also couldn’t play my race. My race only brought me pain. I only realized that when I was about thirty.

Today, as an almost sixty year old woman of color, I play my race. Because this is who I am. I’m in this skin. I don’t dye my hair anymore and I will never get my face fixed, because I don’t mind the process. I’m like: Fuck you, this is what’s up.

We have only so much time on planet earth. So, let’s make every moment we have as loving, fun and passionate as we can. And if there’s work for me to do: Yay! And if there’s not: Yay! Now, it’s all just cake. I would rather spend my time making this a better world. Let’s care about the soil. Let’s stop using chemicals. Let’s stop shooting each other. Let’s have a better social safety net. Let’s have health care.

You just mentioned that SOUL MAN would not be made today. I think you’re right. But back then, was there any issue with it? Any backlash?

No backlash. People just saw it as a romcom at the time. There was no sensitivity about it in 1986. People weren’t even aware of the blackface storyline. Also, he does get confronted. He does fail. He falls in love and he’s cracked open. Nobody thought it was racist, because he gets his comeuppance. Spike Lee was right about me, but he was wrong about this movie. It’s adorable and funny.

Another movie people are wrong about, is THE SQUEEZE, which I absolutely love. You and Michael Keaton make a great pair and the movie has this crazy energy. I do not understand why it was so hated at the time.

Yes, it’s very funny. I had a really good time on that film. I replaced another actor at the last minute. She had some issues and was fired. But Michael didn’t like it at all, for whatever reason. He never talks about it. He was going through a terrible time, I think. The film is a little bit cursed, because someone died on that. During that stunt where the car goes into the water, one of the stunt men died.

You also did THE PRINCIPAL in 1987.

I’ve never seen it. My grandfather died while I was working on that. He was really important to me, so I was going through that. Also, I did not enjoy working with Jim Belushi at all. I found him to be difficult. Now, we’re fine, so… But movies like this happen when you say yes to everything. I said yes to a lot of scripts that came my way. I had a young son who had medical needs, so I always felt that I should work as much as possible.

But after 1987 there was a hiatus of a couple of years.

I was finished. I was miserable. I quit my agency, left Hollywood, moved to Woodstock, New York and went into therapy.

The reason you quit your agency, was that because of the Steven Seagal story?

Pretty much. But there were other things as well. I needed to get my head examined. And I just didn’t want to be in town anymore. I was having difficulty finding good roles. I didn’t feel supported in this town and I didn’t feel appreciated.

[A few years ago, Rae Dawn Chong disclosed how she was sent to a hotel by her agency to meet Steven Seagal. Once there, she was directed to his room. He opened the door in his robe. She knew then that her own agent had ‘pimped her out’, as she said. She left, but Seagal kept leaving messages on her answering machine. - Ed]

The fact that you didn’t feel supported, was that because of what the agency did to you?

I already started to see that the agency is not there for your best interest. They were not focused on doing what’s best for your career, they were focused on what’s best for the agency, for them! To this day, I still have a beef about it. Because the agent is not looking out for your best interest, you also need a manager. Now, the manager takes twenty five percent of your paycheck, the agent takes twenty five percent, the government takes a chunk. So, you’re only stuck with twenty percent of what you earn. The industry is bloated. I really felt it was fucked up. I wanted to get away from it and rethink my whole existence. And I did. And it was great.

You were friends with Andrew Davis, who had made two films with Steven Seagal. I was wondering if you ever talked to him about what happened and if he had anything to offer on the subject.

Well, no. I was friends with Andrew, but we don’t really see each other. And as far as that episode is concerned, I blame CAA more than I blame Seagal. He’s a pig. But CAA were sending the actresses to him. It’s heartbreaking to realize that the agent you are paying, is not working for your best interest. But now everybody’s been humbled. Now, everything is rosy. I’m being sarcastic of course. The Me Too movement has created good things and maybe great change and yet... Will we really have a culture shift if we don't equalize leadership and power? If we just talk the talk and don't walk it?

What made you return to movies a couple of years later?

I got hired to do these obscure films in Brazil. The pay was fantastic. I couldn’t resist it. Any excuse to go down to Rio de Janeiro and the Amazon, you know?

Around this time you also did THE BORROWER.

Yeah, that was hideous. I don’t like that film. I tried to get out of it. That’s an example of: I should have said no. I’ve only seen it once, with my sister and she laughed. That was a dark period. I hated the movie and I hated making it. I did not like working with director John McNaughton.

But I did like working on the Stephen King thing TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE. I was living in Woodstock and the producer came to my house, asking if I would do it. I really liked the script and I even thought that the story was so good, they should have made it into a feature. Of the three stories in the film, I think that one was the best. And I loved working with James Remar.

You did a lot of genre movies at the time, in the early nineties.

It was all I was being offered.

One of them is CRYING FREEMAN. I think it’s a great movie, but I didn’t like how they got rid of your character so quickly.

I have to tell you, I have no idea what you’re talking about, because I’ve never seen it. But I did enjoy making it. It was culturally very interesting to work with the Japanese actors. I learned that the really beautiful Japanese ladies never eat in public. They have someone who picks out their food. They never touch it themselves. I felt like a pirate or something compared to these ladies.

Do you still watch any of your movies?

No, not really. It’s hard for me, because I’m not responsible for it. I’m just in it. I’ll watch something I’ve directed. Some of them are terrible, some are really good. But at least I’m responsible for it. I did watch the latest movie I’m in. It’s called THE SLEEPING NEGRO. It’s about a black man who wakes up to consciousness. He becomes woke. It’s fantastic! I’m really proud of that. So I did watch it, because I wanted to see how I did and how the film turned out. It’s not a long part, but it’s a great part.

Related talks

• Mark L. Lester

• John McNaughton

This interview first appeared in a shorter version in the Dutch fanzine Schokkend Nieuws. Above is the full version of this talk, edited only for clarity.