I DON’T LIKE TO PLAY VICTIMS

On the same day Jan Doense, Bart Oosterhoorn, Fir Suidema and Roel Haanen talked to Caroline Munro, in October 2000, they also got a chance to sit down with Ingrid Pitt, who made a name for herself with risqué parts in COUNTESS DRACULA and THE VAMPIRE LOVERS and who also made an appearance in the cult classic THE WICKER MAN. Falling in love with another man, while being married to a powerful film mogul, proved her undoing as an actress. She reinvented herself as a writer. She still liked to return to horror films from time to time and even tried to persuade her friend Christopher Lee to do another Dracula. At the time of this talk, there were rumors that Hammer Films were starting up again and Pitt was going to be part of it, mainly as a writer. In the end it took several more years for Hammer to be revived and Ingrid Pitt would only have a cameo in the first of the comeback films. Two years later she passed away.

You have a new film coming up I believe?

Yes! It’s called THE ASYLUM. My daughter plays the lead role and I play a lobotomized doctor. Playing crazy old women comes very naturally to me these days. Did you know my daughter gave me a grandchild? I’m a grandmother now [Pitt plays like she’s old and debilitated].

I did not know that. Congratulations. Are you still keen on working as an actress?

Well, I know I’m an actress, but I’m so much a writer now. I’ve written fourteen novels. And it’s sort of schizophrenic to know what’s important. I was meeting a publisher who I really wanted to publish my books. On the same day I get a call from someone telling me Wes Craven’s in England and he very much wants to meet me. And I said: No, I have to meet this publisher. My husband said: You could have met the publisher at another time. But this is how it went.

So, it’s easy for you to pass up on films then?

Well, I still do them. Whenever I’m in America, at a fan convention or whatever, I’m hounded by Troma. You know Troma?

Yes, of course.

What do you think of them?

Well, they’re great.

I actually saw one of their films. It was ROMEO & JULIET and…

TROMEO.

Oh, yes. TROMEO & JULIET. And Juliet was having a baby and rats were coming out of her belly. And I was so appalled. I was actually physically sick. So I never did a film with them.

That’s probably wise. But if you’ve seen three or four of their films you will understand what they’re up to.

But I don’t want to do films like that. I prefer to write books. You can do whatever you like when you write. You can actually have a hell of a budget, and nobody cares. I’m in the middle of writing my incredible novel about a woman motor racer and [my husband] Tony says it’s total crap because he used to motor racer and he says women can’t do that because they haven’t got the strength. But I don’t care. I just don’t care. My girl can race. It’s a mafia story, because she can’t get any sponsorship anywhere else. It’s partly based on Giovanna Amati, an Italian racing driver who was backed by the mafia. It’s an incredible novel I’m working on and it was terribly hard to pull myself away from it to come here.

You’ve also been writing bedside companions about…

Yes! About vampire lovers, deadly doctors and ghost hunters. One is coming out right now called Murder!.... Torture!.... and Depravity! [growls].

You’re clearly a fan of the horror genre.

I don’t know. I consider myself a crime writer. It’s very strange. When you become a writer you have to find an outlet for your stories; you need a publisher. And finding a publisher is harder than finding a role in a movie. It’s especially hard if you’re a little bit older.

When did you start writing?

When I was a child. I started writing about the war. Then I moved on to stories about Indians; fantasy stories about Navajos and Comanches. I can truly say I’m a natural born writer. It’s something that I love to do.

So, when did you start publishing books?

My first was published in 1982, called Cuckoo Run. And that only happened because Argentina had a revolution. I had written scripts to do a television series in Argentina and because of the revolution we couldn’t do it. I had Richard Widmark to star and Brian Hutton, who directed WHERE EAGLES DARE, to direct. It was going to be called THE LAST ENEMY and it was about a deposed president and his daughter. She was hiring American mercenaries to help her father get back on the throne as it were. But while we were there we were advised, in the middle of the night, to leave the country. I was so upset that all my work came to nothing that I decided to rewrite it as a novel. From then on I just kept on writing.

So this was all after you had already become a horror icon with the Hammer films.

Yes. You don’t know what’s going to happen to Hammer, are you?

No, that’s what we were hoping you could tell us. They are definitely coming back? Is Roy Skeggs involved?

No! He’s dead. I mean, sort of. I massaged that man for over twenty years and nothing ever happened. I don’t like it when men do that to me. [Laughs] No, the people involved are Charles Saatchi, Larry Chrisfield and Terry Ilott, who is absolutely fantastic. They are going to do wonderful things. I can’t be specific, because it’s a little too early, but let me tell you this: it’s going to be massive. They’re doing enormous financial deals to get financing for films. They’re going to publish novels, in which I’m featured rather prominently. And they’re doing television.  

They want to do a whole new type of films and move away from slasher films, thank God!. They’ll have to find directors that are willing and able to do a different type of horror film. A bit like what Hammer did years ago.

You’re referring to the Hammer of the early seventies?

Yes, late sixties and early seventies. I can truly say I was incredibly lucky, because when I came to Hammer I was the only actress to play a predator. All the other women played victims. I don’t like to play victims.

You only made two Hammer films.

Yes. I did a few more for Amicus though. I could have done more for Hammer, but I thought the scripts were becoming silly, like TWINS OF EVIL. I was offered that, but I found the part to be totally uninteresting. I was out to play the ballsy leading lady. The films I did were incredible and I’m glad I did them because people still love them. I truly believe they saved Hammer for another two or three years at that time. After that slasher films and THE EXORCIST and such took over. Hammer didn’t have chance.

You just said that you are glad that the trend of slasher movies are over and that a new type of horror film is emerging. Are you referring to films like THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT?

Oh, no! I hated it. I went to sleep. So boring.

Well, it shows that you don’t need much if you have a good idea.

But was it a good idea?

It was clever.

Ha! They walk through the forest and don’t find anything! I fell asleep. I shouldn’t even talk about it because I missed so much of it while I was sleeping. No, it was all hype. It had nothing to do with the quality of the film. When I mean a new type of horror film I mean something like ALIEN. That was fresh and new when it came out.

Horror will always be important to people, because they love to be frightened in a safe environment. Sitting in a theater and going Ooooh! and jumping on their date shouting: Save me, save me. Men love that, don’t they?

When you made THE VAMPIRE LOVERS and COUNTESS DRACULA it was really a new phase in horror, right? Hammer took it one step further.

Yes, they started with the nudity. Harry Fine and Michael Style, the producers, wanted to hang around when we were doing our nude bit. So I rang up Jimmy Carreras and said: ‘Look Jimmy, I haven’t done anything like this before. Maddy [Madeline Smith] hasn’t done anything like this before. And we don’t want a lot of peepers hanging around with their tongues hanging out.’ Because that’s the kind of producers they were. Michael Style used to walk around with his flight bag full of pornographic magazines. He would show it to anybody who wanted to see it. I couldn’t stand it. So I asked Jimmy if he could just summon them to London to look at rushes. He said: sure. So I felt a little bad when the day came and I was leaving my dressing room and I saw Michael and Harry walking away with their heads hanging down. I flashed my robe and they were very happy [laughs]. After that we worked in peace. And I got hooked on nude scenes, because they would always bring you hot water, brandy, champagne, whatever you needed to feel comfortable. They’re always so afraid that you’ll change your mind. That the silly cow suddenly doesn’t want to do it and jumps back in her clothes. But it never bothered me. If you have a reason, in the script, to get undressed then that’s okay. But I wouldn’t want to do it just for exhibitionism.

COUNTESS DRACULA was a big disappointment to me, because we had censorship in England. I had long meetings with Jimmy Carreras about the film, because I knew a lot about [Elisabeth] Báthory and what horrible things she did. As far as I was concerned there wasn’t any horror in the film. There was this scene where I sponged myself with a bit of ketchup. So I said to Peter [Sasdy]: Look, it’s got to absolutely drip with blood. Let’s get a bucket of pig’s blood and put the sponge in there and let it pour all over me. And he said: No, they won’t let us. It would have been different had I said: Hang up the whore by her feet and cut her throat. And then lie under the victim and lap up her blood. Incidentally, that does happen in my book Murder, Torture and Depravity. I have a long chapter on Bathory in there. In any case, we didn’t have any horror in it. Now, if you are going to do a film about a woman who has murdered 650 virgins – you couldn’t even find 650 virgins nowadays, can you? – then you have to present the horror on the screen.

Could you tell us how you got involved with THE WICKER MAN? Because we read in Allan Brown’s book-

Oh, you’ve read that, have you?

Yes. Have you?

Yes.

What did you think.

Someone asked me that question when I was on stage at the NFT [National Film Theatre in London] and Allan was there too. I said: I’ll tell Allan after the show. I’ll take him out back and give him one. Because what he did to me was unbelievable. Really unbelievable. He had no right to write that about me. It was filthy. Why did he do it? Because I didn’t want to give him an interview because Orion [Books] wanted me to write about the making of that film as a mafia story. That’s what it was. It was horrendous. I can’t even tell you how awful it actually was. British Lion changed hands every night. Six times during the filming in Scotland! New limo’s would arrive on top of the mountain whilst we were doing the singing scene and people we didn’t know stepped out of those limo’s and started telling us what was wrong with the film! It was a nightmare, especially for [producer] Peter Snell whom I’m pissed off at now. He disclosed things which he had no right to. Really cheap and nasty. I’m older now so I probably should just have a laugh about it. But it made me look like I was the bimbo on that film, when actually [Peter and I] had a two year relationship which was very serious. It was quite awful. My husband was the head of the Rank Organization and he told Peter he might show the film if he cut me out of it completely, when he had absolutely no intention of showing it. It wasn’t a Rank type film anyway. It was all quite vile.

Basically, I think the book was well researched. But it was so negative. I should do my own book. I was right there and I know what happened afterwards. The nightmare went on and escalated to enormous proportions. [Allan] didn’t write about all that because he didn’t know about it. I’m glad I didn’t tell him, but on the other hand he wouldn’t have been so vicious had I told him. Anyway… Elizabeth Taylor always said: Darling, if they spell your name right it doesn’t matter.

The suffering on the movie was such that we never knew if we would still be working on it the next day. In order to make life a bit better Chris Lee and I went to mountain tops and hit our balls into the Irish Sea. He taught me how to hold my golf club and let go of my balls [laughs]. No one was more hurt by what happened to THE WICKER MAN than Chris. Because he had money in the film and he loved the script. He will still say, today, that he hasn’t done anything worthwhile in his life, except for THE WICKER MAN. And I will say: Chris, you’re really over the top here.

And he hated that they cut the film. Personally, I think the cuts [British Lion managing director] Michael Deeley made were alright. Because Chris just talked more and more about the apples and he sang two more verses of the song. It went on and on about the apples. And the beginning, where we see Howie being married and it’s making in plain that he’s a God fearing Christian, we didn’t need to see that. I had a big argument with Robin Hardy about that at the NFT. From a writer’s point of view to immediately state what Howie was, is a big mistake. You should evolve that.

There are rumors that Canal Plus will do a sequel and a remake.

Forget it. Never going to happen. The second one Robin wrote is awful. And Peter doesn’t want to get involved. He has had enough nightmares. He gave some to me. He should be very lucky if he never walks into me again. I shall spit him in the eye. And he’s lucky if that’s all I do.

And would Christopher Lee be interested?

Knowing Chris, how bitter he is about the whole thing… When we had the big launch of Allan Brown’s book at the NFT they announced they were going to show the 103 minute version. What do they show? The 86 minute version. The most cut version I’ve ever seen. Chris was furious. We were sitting on the stage afterwards and he said: I just find it appalling that you would announce the uncut version, pack the cinema – and it was packed! – and then show this. 

What about the story that the negative was lost because it was used in the construction of a highway?

Nah! That’s not true. Peter knows… or thinks he knows where the negatives are. But there are so many stories. People think Corman has them. People think a distributor in Florida has them. But it’s not in their interest to keep the negatives in some box.

Do you like the movie as it is?

I think the film has not suffered from the major cuts Deeley made. But having said that I don’t think they had the right to cut it down to 86 minutes. I think that is shameful and criminal. I don’t even like it when an editor changes things in my manuscripts. I write a lot for magazines, columns and such, and it infuriates me when they cut things out or change things.

After all these years you are still known as a queen of horror. Do you ever grow tired of it?

No, I love everything that enhances my professional credibility.

But was it ever a hindrance in your career?

No, because my career took a dive anyway, because I fell in love with another man. My then husband, who was the head of Rank, used all his influence. He even wanted to kill my child. He wrote a letter that said: If I wasn’t such a coward I would kill your child, because that is how I could hurt you the most. I took the letter to the police and never let my daughter out of my sight. It was horrific what he did to me. Horrendous!

So what happened career wise?

Nobody would talk to me. He was a very powerful man. I moved to Argentina after that. And I believe that if I had never become a writer I wouldn’t have worked again.

Peter Cushing liked being associated with horror, but Christopher Lee not so much.

But he’s schizophrenic, the poor thing. Chris always wanted to be an opera singer. And with that voice he has, he should have been. And now that he’s done STAR WARS and THE LORD OF THE RINGS you probably won’t be able to have a coffee with him anymore, he’s so big headed.

You still see him?

Yes. I always try to make him come back to horror movies. When I saw him in America I tried to persuade him to play Steffanie’s father in THE ASYLUM and he said he would love to, but he had this sinus problem which made it hard for him to work. Not true, of course. He just doesn’t want to do horror films anymore. I had big rows with him about it. If you have become incredibly famous for something you should stand by it and say: I did DRACULA and I did it so well that he will live forever!

Wasn’t he terribly disappointed in the last film? He thought the character was being degraded?

Possibly, but he didn’t degrade the character. He should stand by his work. I stopped trying to get him to play Dracula again. You see, I have for years tried to do DRACULA WHO? in which Dracula turns into a vegetarian. I can’t get it off the ground. Chris doesn’t want to do it, but he doesn’t have a sense of humor anyway.

There was a stuntman who was sitting in the makeup chair being done up to play the creature [in THE CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN] and the producer walked in and said: Look, I’m sorry. We’re going to pay you, but would you get out of the chair? We have found a real actor for the part. That’s how Chris became famous! It was wonderful, so why knock it? I’ve seen him treat the fans with disdain, which infuriates me.

On a good day, he’s fantastic and I love being with him. I went to the second International Iranian Film Festival when the shah was still in power and to travel with him was mind blowing. You never had to say a word. He had the most incredible stories. He would tell me stories about his cousin, who was one of the people who murdered Rasputin. He’s got the most incredible stories. He tells them so well I don’t even care if they’re true.

Related talks

• Ian Sharp

• Caroline Munro

This interview first appeared in a shorter version in the Dutch fanzine Schokkend Nieuws. Above is the full version of this talk, edited only for clarity.

Special thanks to Marcus Brooks, manager of the Peter Cushing Appreciation Society for letting us use photo’s from his website.